Friday 3 August 2012

Sacks / Guardian: COMPARE WITH my today's POSTS!



Compare with today's postings.

GS


Once, the chief rabbi represented all British Jewry. No longer

The falling-out over gay marriage demonstrates that Jonathan Sacks' successor will be only the head of a centrist rump




Jonathan Sacks,






'The presumption that the chief rabbi of the United Synagogue [currently Jonathan Sacks, above] is also the public religious representative of British Jewry – has become less and less credible'. Photograph: David Sillitoe for the Guardian
Next year the present chief rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, will retire. The search for his successor is well under way. I am reliably informed that one candidate has already been ruled out as being "too orthodox". Other possible contenders have ruled themselves out, believing that the office is a poisoned chalice. In truth the office of chief rabbi  – much misunderstood by the world at large and not properly understood (in my experience) even by many Jews – is no longer what it once was.
This has recently been underlined by a very public row triggered by Sacks' response to the Home Office consultation on gay marriage. Towards the end of last month, as the consultation period neared its end, it became clear that the beth din (ecclesiastical court) of the United Synagogue, together with its rabbinical council, had officially urged the government to reject the proposal to legalise gay marriage.
"Our understanding [they declared ] of marriage from time immemorial has been that of a union between a man and a woman. Any attempt to redefine this sacred institution would be to undermine the concept of marriage." The submission also made the point that "any attempt to exclude the possibility of a religious ceremony for such [gay] couples would be subject to challenge to the European court of human rights, on the grounds of discrimination" – a fear that is shared by other faiths.
Sacks is not merely a member of the beth din – he is its av – "father"– the chief justice. So the submission must be taken to reflect his own position on this issue (an assumption neither he nor his office has denied). And – that being the case – denunciations have followed not merely from Liberal  and Reform  spokespersons but from some of the good and the great in British Jewry, 26 of whom appended their signatures to a letter in last week's Jewish Chronicle  condemning not merely what Sacks and his fellow United Synagogue rabbis had said but the fact that they and he had said it: "Jewish law may prohibit same-sex relations … But Jewish law can play no part in a modern secular society in restricting the lives of non-Jews – and Jews who do not accept its restraints. The proper response to the consultation should have been: it is not our proper business to comment. Speaking when silence is required is no virtue."
The chief rabbinate evolved in the 19th century, when British Jews were campaigning for civil equality with non-Jews. Hermann Adler  (who was chief rabbi from 1891 to 1911) deliberately projected himself as the Jewish equivalent of the archbishop of Canterbury – and wore gaiters to prove it! As well as being, by virtue of his contract, the supreme religious authority of the United Synagogue in London he could also claim – with some justice – to be the public religious representative of the totality of Jews in the UK. Edward VII called him "my chief rabbi", and even the then minuscule progressive Anglo-Jewish congregations deferred to him. And this was true of his immediate successor Joseph Hertz , who held the office from 1913 to 1946. But over the last half-century or so this presumption – that the chief rabbi of the United Synagogue is also the public religious representative of British Jewry – has become less and less credible. And the current falling-out over gay marriage has dramatically illustrated the point.
The extremes within British Jewry – extremes of left and right – have grown at the expense of the centre. Whoever succeeds Sacks will have to live with this fact of life. And, consequently, it seems to me that the role of public religious representative is at an end.
What we are left with is the other – and much more parochial – role as merely religious head of something called the United Hebrew Congregations – principally the London-based United Synagogue and an assortment of other congregations too poor or too apathetic to appoint their own rabbinical decisors . These centrist communities probably account for less than half the totality of self-identifying Jews currently living in the UK.
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  • derekdreery
    13 July 2012 8:41AM
    Can someone explain to me why gays are not going to be allowed to get married in religious ceremonys. For example, most churches will not want to conduct ceremonys, but a minority will. Why not have no restrictions at all and let the religious groups themselves decide if they want to conduct gay ceremonys or not?
  • GoloMannFan
    13 July 2012 8:44AM
    The extremes within British Jewry – extremes of left and right – have grown at the expense of the centre.

    You don't need to assert that, Professor; you are a living proof of it.
  • Keo2008
    13 July 2012 8:44AM
    Interesting article.
    The "leader" of religious Jews in Britain, like the leaders of the Christian and Muslim groups in Britain should have zero say in what laws a secular government chooses to introduce. Of course they can express their opinions, but they should carry no more weight than anyone else's.
    And since their beliefs are based on ancient and outdated texts and attitudes, their opinion should actually carry less weight than those of someone who lives in the real world of today
  • lambda
    13 July 2012 8:49AM
    Legalizing Gay Marriage is none of the business of these pompous self righteous so called religious leaders. They are not destroying the possibility for gay marriage they are destroying religion.
    Some day they will say look what we have done! Shame
  • Berchmans
    13 July 2012 8:49AM
    Geoffrey
    ## Jewish law may prohibit same-sex relations ##

    Very helpful article from you Geoffrey, I was expecting the worst . I didnt know the above. . Interesting that on CIF it is normally other religions that get hammered for homophobia. Good luck to those fighting for equality whatever religious persuasion.
    B
  • funkins
    13 July 2012 8:49AM
    the beth din (ecclesiastical court)
    dyou reckon this is where we got the word ''din'' from?
  • StevHep
    13 July 2012 9:02AM
    Contributor
    But Jewish law can play no part in a modern secular society in restricting the lives of non-Jews
    The Beth Din is not asking for a change in the law. It is making the comment that it is quite happy with the law as it stands. The whole clamour raised by activists on this matter gives the impression that religious groups are seeking anti-LGBT reforms which will roll back hard won "freedoms". Actually in every case all they are saying is "the status quo? Yes we can happily live with it."
  • Keo2008
    13 July 2012 9:08AM
    Quite so. Religious leaders nearly always support the Status Quo, whether it be support for slavery, child labour, persecution of those of other faiths or none or denying women the vote.
    Then they have to be bought kicking and screaming into the modern world by secular governments.
    So I am not remotely surprised religions oppose reforms- twas ever thus.
  • conifer2
    13 July 2012 9:11AM
    derekdreery
    Can someone explain to me why gays are not going to be allowed to get married in religious ceremonys. For example, most churches will not want to conduct ceremonys, but a minority will. Why not have no restrictions at all and let the religious groups themselves decide if they want to conduct gay ceremonys or not?
    What? Let people make their own decisions about their own lives? You'll be wanting to vote next.
  • Rotwatcher
    13 July 2012 9:12AM
    Contributor
    Having often heard the oleaginous prig Sacks on "Thought For The Day" I can't believe his successor could possibly be any worse.
  • islamophobiasucks
    13 July 2012 9:12AM
    Keo2008: 'The "leader" of religious Jews in Britain, like the leaders of the Christian and Muslim groups in Britain should have zero say in what laws a secular government chooses to introduce', not only is the UK (according to the Prime Minister and Melanie Phillips) a Christian country, but the decisions made by the Beth Din courts are also recognised under the law of the land (when some Muslims request similar recognition for civil matters settled under a Sharia framework, hysterical Islamophobes envision beheadings and amputations to follow).
    'And since their beliefs are based on ancient and outdated texts and attitudes', isn't this a subjective opinion? Because what you may regard as 'outdated', may well be highly relevant to the present situation in the mind of a believer.
  • greenbirdy
    13 July 2012 9:13AM
    Its quite a big step from not marrying and haning them from cranes and other legally enshrined punishments
    If you are interested, the gay pride march in Israel is a real laugh...you should go along one year.
    cant think of any religous texts which advocate same sex relations.
    Most religious texts have some blood thirsty bits too.
    the question is though are they ignored or are they devotely and violently followed?
  • conifer2
    13 July 2012 9:15AM
    StevHep
    The Beth Din is not asking for a change in the law. It is making the comment that it is quite happy with the law as it stands. The whole clamour raised by activists on this matter gives the impression that religious groups are seeking anti-LGBT reforms which will roll back hard won "freedoms". Actually in every case all they are saying is "the status quo? Yes we can happily live with it."
    No, I'm pretty sure even the activists know they are seeking a new freedom.
  • GoloMannFan
    13 July 2012 9:15AM
    Having often heard the oleaginous prig Sacks on "Thought For The Day" I can't believe his successor could possibly be any worse.

    I'm not Jewish myself but I reckon his thoughts for the day are OK - humane, stimulating. Easily more interesting than half the Christians who get that slot...
  • Ivankirby
    13 July 2012 9:19AM
    Quite so. Religious leaders nearly always support the Status Quo, whether it be support for slavery, child labour, persecution of those of other faiths or none or denying women the vote. Then they have to be bought kicking and screaming into the modern world by secular governments.
    And then, as with Dr Sentamu and civil partnerships, they claim they were on the progressive side all along.
  • davidabsalom
    13 July 2012 9:20AM
    Actually in every case all they are saying is "the status quo? Yes we can happily live with it."
    Live happily with discrimination and inequality? Fine. Just so long as we know.
  • Ivankirby
    13 July 2012 9:22AM
    I'm always quite tickled by the idea that gay people will want to forces churches who don't want to marry them to do so, as if making trouble is the main thing they want out of their wedding day. What's even more bizarre is that some people seem to genuinely believe it.
  • wordsareimportant
    13 July 2012 9:26AM
    Legalizing Gay Marriage is none of the business of these pompous self righteous so called religious leaders
    The Chief Rabbi has every right to provide his view on the matter. Just as much right as any other Trade Union, Women's Institution, Gay Rights lobby or scout group.
    The Chief Rabbi represents the United Synagogue. As most Jews belonged to that group, he represented most Jews. Now that less do, he represents a smaller but still significant group. Nothing to misunderstand there.
    Trade union membership has reduced significantly over the years. They still have power and influence. They also make policy decisions on matters that have nothing to do with the work place. Any cohesive group of individuals can make statements, it is up to the government as to whether they will listen.
  • BobJanova
    13 July 2012 9:28AM
    "Jewish law may prohibit same-sex relations … But Jewish law can play no part in a modern secular society in restricting the lives of non-Jews – and Jews who do not accept its restraints. The proper response to the consultation should have been: it is not our proper business to comment. Speaking when silence is required is no virtue."

    I'm glad to see some religious people 'get it'.
  • Keo2008
    13 July 2012 9:30AM
    There are indeed very narrow and specific occasions when a Beth Din judgment will be honoured and recognised by a Civil Court, but only when both parties (if it is a dispute) accept the ruling of the Beth Din. This is in the same way that courts will recognise agreements reach through an arbitration service, provided both sides have already accepted the arbitration.
    Similarly I cannot imagine there would be a problem if in a dispute between 2 Muslims, and they both accepted the ruling of a Sharia Court (or any other arbitration service), and it was a civil matter not a criminal matter, and no pressure had been put on either party to make them accept the ruling
    I am sure you would agree that if the 2 parties could not agree, or if any form of punishment was involved, or if there was reason to think one of the parties had been coerced into "agreeing" the arbitration, a British court should not allow that..
    You think these ancient texts aren't outdated? So presumably you support the institution of slavery (permitted in the NT) or Genocide (permitted in the OT) because God said it was OK back then?
  • conifer2
    13 July 2012 9:31AM
    Ivankirby
    I'm always quite tickled by the idea that gay people will want to forces churches who don't want to marry them to do so, as if making trouble is the main thing they want out of their wedding day. What's even more bizarre is that some people seem to genuinely believe it.
    It's because they think that anyone who opposes religion is a simply being a naughty boy bucking against authority and seeking attention.
  • nansikom
    13 July 2012 9:32AM
    >>The "leader" of religious Jews in Britain, like the leaders of the Christian and Muslim groups in Britain should have zero say in what laws a secular government chooses to introduce. Of course they can express their opinions, but they should carry no more weight than anyone else's.<<
    In principle I agree with you Keo2008. But the 'laws a secular government chooses to introduce' form part of the mandate of government that is given by the electorate, in the UK every 5 years or so. Something as fundamental as the redefinition of the marriage as being gender-neutral should be subject to the decision of all. It changes the definition of marriage for everyone as well as being a major intervention and innovation by the state in an area of personal relationships where the state has historically trod lightly. So gender-neutral marriage should be subject to full democratic debate and consent.
    The government clearly sees this argument as it has guaranteed a free vote when the issue comes to Parliament. It is an issue of conscience, just like Capital Punishment. Yet the government is pushing this issue with absolutely no mandate - gender-neutral marriage was not included in the manifestos of any of the three main parties at the last election.
    There is no mandate for gender-neutral marriage until either a government is elected based on a manifesto that includes it or the people vote for it in a referendum - it is as simple as that!
  • hoff1000
    13 July 2012 9:32AM
    Hi B
    The Guard dealt with this in 2010. Mordechai Beck explained:
    For centuries homosexuality has been taboo; it's not what nice Jewish boys or girls do. The biblical proscription against "men lying with men as though with a woman" (Leviticus 20:13) is considered the very bedrock of Jewish morality.
    Within Orthodox Judaism there is no "ban against homosexuality" - as Beck puts it - and never has been. Nor has homosexuality been "taboo".
    I hope that clears things up!
  • calmeilles
    13 July 2012 9:33AM

    But Jewish law can play no part in a modern secular society in restricting the lives of non-Jews
    The Beth Din is not asking for a change in the law. It is making the comment that it is quite happy with the law as it stands. The whole clamour raised by activists on this matter gives the impression that religious groups are seeking anti-LGBT reforms which will roll back hard won "freedoms". Actually in every case all they are saying is "the status quo? Yes we can happily live with it."
    Not quite.
    In every case they are saying that secular civil law must reflect religious teaching.
    The quoted comment is apt and reasonable. No more should Christian law (such as it is) govern the lives of non-Christians nor Shar'ia govern non-Moslems.
    The only solution that is equitable in a society of many faiths is a civil, secular law that bows to none of them. And in such a case the right of equality under that law must supersede religious right.
    To this end the proposed change in the law does not seek to mandate any religious practice of marriage at all but only make the civil contract of marriage available on an equal basis.
  • letitbe
    13 July 2012 9:34AM
    when some Muslims request similar recognition for civil matters settled under a Sharia framework, hysterical Islamophobes envision beheadings and amputations to follow
    Under sharia family law, a husband's testimony is worth double that of his wife, children are sent to live with fathers regardless of the circumstances, and women have no right to divorce - when violence against her is proven (see Sharia Law in Britain: A Threat to One Law for All and Equal Rights).

    4) Sharia family law has been described as "wholly incompatible" with human rights and democratic principles by the House of Lords.

    Last year, Baroness Caroline Cox introduced a Private Members Arbitration and Mediation (Equality) Bill to the House of Lords which is due a second reading this October 27th.
  • StevHep
    13 July 2012 9:35AM
    Contributor
    Live happily with discrimination and inequality?
    The current law on marriage does not discriminate against anyone except polygamists and bigamists. You can only define it as discriminatory if you first re-define marriage and even then all you can say is that the current law about marriage as currently defined would, in the future, be discriminatory against the new definition which parliament or the courts might, in the future, make definitively.
    The only people seeking changes in the law are LGBT activists and their acolytes. Those faith communities who are not campaigning for change are increasingly being portrayed as seeking to do something bad when in fact they are seeking to do nothing at all.
  • patrickfowke
    13 July 2012 9:40AM
    "Quite so. Religious leaders nearly always support the Status Quo, whether it be support for slavery"
    - Here and elsewhere you have an extraordinary Utopian view of life.
    That's fine if you're a St Francis of Assisi figure who imposes his harsh Utopianism on himself but not others.
    Slavery was introduced into Europe by pagan Europeans not Christian leaders.
    Yes, Christian leaders COMPROMISED with slavery as a necessary evil of the day. Just as the things of this world such as violence in war, money, property and so on are necessary evils of this world that we have to compromise with as part of our fallen nature.
    But Christian leaders (on the whole) didn't promote slavery. But compromised with it as a particular aspect of secular economic life of the day, and challenging slave owners they had a moral duty to treat slaves well.
    As history progresses we see an unfurling of justice, and so often it was Christians taking a leadership role ie William Wilberforce and the abolishment of slavery in these islands.
    It is precisely Christians who have defended the conditions of slaves over the centuries, and when the climate was right to try and bring about the end of slavery.
    In a Godless universe where does the moral imperative to defend slaves and abolish slavery (sure, i don't deny atheists do good, but i would argue it is because of divine justice working in them although they wouldnt agree to this) come from? And if a man doesn't have a soul (according to some / many atheists) and is just an animal, where comes the imperative to treat a man differently to a beast of burden such as a donkey come from?
  • conifer2
    13 July 2012 9:42AM
    StevHep
    The current law on marriage does not discriminate against anyone except polygamists and bigamists. You can only define it as discriminatory if you first re-define marriage and even then all you can say is that the current law about marriage as currently defined would, in the future, be discriminatory against the new definition which parliament or the courts might, in the future, make definitively
    And that's what is happening. The marriage is being re-define so it doesn't discriminate against people who want to marry someone of the same sex.
    The only people seeking changes in the law are LGBT activists and their acolytes. Those faith communities who are not campaigning for change are increasingly being portrayed as seeking to do something bad when in fact they are seeking to do nothing at all.
    Sometimes doing nothing at all is bad if it allows an injustice to continue.
  • StevHep
    13 July 2012 9:44AM
    Contributor
    I'm always quite tickled by the idea that gay people will want to forces churches who don't want to marry them to do so, as if making trouble is the main thing they want out of their wedding day
    Ben Summerskill, Chief Executive of the LGBT lobbying group Stonewall did say this , rather revealingly-
    “We are very clear that this is an issue of religious freedom and if faiths want to celebrate the ceremonies of two men or two women, it’s not for someone else to say you can’t do that. “Right now, faiths shouldn’t be forced to hold civil partnerships, although in ten or 20 years, that may change.”
  • letitbe
    13 July 2012 9:44AM
    faith communities who are not campaigning for change are increasingly being portrayed as seeking to do something bad when in fact they are seeking to do nothing at all.
    How is the statement below doing nothing at all? I'd call it attempting to assert undue influence.
    the beth din (ecclesiastical court) of the United Synagogue, together with its rabbinical council, had officially urged the government to reject the proposal to legalise gay marriage.
  • Greenshoots
    13 July 2012 9:46AM
    Jewish law may prohibit same-sex relations … But Jewish law can play no part in a modern secular society in restricting the lives of non-Jews – and Jews who do not accept its restraints.
    This seesm to me to be absurd. The Governement puts a proposal out to consultation with the British people. I presume the British people includes Orthodox Jews, same as it includes Catholics and Muslims. Giving the official Jewish point of view (Jewish Law) is an entirely valid response to such a consultation. The Reformed Jews have an equal right to make their views known, as no doubt they have.
    If you don't want to be told that there are people don't like your proposal, don't go out to consultation - but equally. don't pretend to be democratic.
  • GulliverUK
    13 July 2012 9:47AM
    But Christian leaders (on the whole) didn't promote slavery.
    I'm sorry, I simply cannot let that pass.
    Church apologises for slave trade
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4694896.stm
    An amendment "recognising the damage done" to those enslaved was backed overwhelmingly by the General Synod. Debating the motion, Rev Simon Bessant, from Pleckgate, Blackburn, described the Church's involvement in the trade, saying: "We were at the heart of it."
  • davidabsalom
    13 July 2012 9:48AM
    The only people seeking changes in the law are LGBT activists and their acolytes.
    That's one of those definitiions that mean anything you want it to mean. I can counter with the only people who are opposing changing the law are bigots and their enablers.
  • PhilDixon
    13 July 2012 9:49AM
    The only people seeking changes in the law are LGBT activists and their acolytes.
    "Acolytes"? Well, I suppose you'd know about that. What do Cameron and Clegg count as, activists or acolytes?
    Those faith communities who are not campaigning for change are increasingly being portrayed as seeking to do something bad when in fact they are seeking to do nothing at all.
    Sometimes doing nothing is something bad. Ask Bernard Law.
  • Keo2008
    13 July 2012 9:51AM
    I never said that Christians introduced slavery- I said they supported it. And far from supporting it reluctantly as you suggest, they supported it with enthusiasm. The Pope issued a decree saying Black people were not really people and so could be enslaved, so creating the appalling Atlantic Slave Trade. Various Popes had slaves of their own- hardly a reluctant acceptance.
    I agree Wilberforce plays a major part in abolishing slavery and that this was based on strong Christian principles. But he wasn't the leader of the Church of England, and the leadership of the CofE supported the slave trade to the bitter end.
    On your last point: I have a conscience. I know the difference between right and wrong. I would not abuse or take advantage of another human being for my gratification or power or wealth. I am an atheist.
    In other words, you don't need to believe in God to know the difference between right and wrong.
  • mcneilio
    13 July 2012 9:53AM
    This has made me think about something.
    If the government does effectively force the Church to accept and implement same sex marriage, on the basis that in the twenty-first century it is unacceptable to treat homosexuals differently to heterosexuals, then surely it would be farcical to do so without implementing the same laws on the Mosque and Synagogue?
    I am not a deeply religious person so I don't know how different religions view homosexuality differently, but I know that religions in general have historically been opposed to it.
    And if making Christianity accept gay marriage is basically to 'send out a message' then what kind of message does it send not to treat the other major religions in the same way?
  • Keo2008
    13 July 2012 9:54AM
    As has (boringly) already been pointed out, nobody is saying that Jews (or other religious groups) cannot express their views on this subject.
    The point is that their view should not carry any more weight than my view,
  • wordsareimportant
    13 July 2012 9:57AM
    Under sharia family law, a husband's testimony is worth double that of his wife, ...women have no right to divorce
    If you don't like Sharia Law don't opt to be judged under a civil Muslim Court. But don't stop others who do. That's fair or is it that you are so indignant on the matter on behalf of other women.
    4) Sharia family law has been described as "wholly incompatible" with human rights and democratic principles by the House of Lords
    See above. Don't like it, go to a British Civil Court instead. This is a free country, no Muslim is forced to go to a Sharia judged court rather than a British Civil court. In fact as I understand it, anyone can go to a Sharia court if they wish.
  • jasbird
    13 July 2012 10:00AM
    I like what Rabbi Jonathan Romain said on this issue. "those who oppose marriage equality on religious grounds are taking a ‘pick and mix’ approach to the scriptures, and might as well support stoning children or slavery."

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/05/31/rabbi-jonathan-romain-chastises-religious-opponents-of-equal-marriage/
  • mcneilio
    13 July 2012 10:00AM
    I agree Wilberforce plays a major part in abolishing slavery and that this was based on strong Christian principles. But he wasn't the leader of the Church of England, and the leadership of the CofE supported the slave trade to the bitter end.</blockquote
    Almost all anti-slavery groups in the slavery era were Christian groups. Almost everyone in Britain was a Christian, so they made up both the pro-slavery and anti-slavery sides. Thus, if you choose to allocate representation of the Christian religion to slavery-supporting Christians but not to those Christians who opposed and eventually stopped it, then surely you are just being purposely selective?
  • Ivankirby
    13 July 2012 10:01AM
    Oh no, he wasn't supposed to say that! Trust Ben to give away Gay HQ's secret 20-year plan. It's true, there's nothing gays like more than a grumpy vicar being held at gunpoint in a wedding photo. Of course in 20 years time Britain will be a homosexual dictatorship under the iron rule of President Elton and all heterosexuals will be forced to perform gay sex on demand in the street, so the church thing will seem quite mild really. Whoops, I've said too much...
  • wordsareimportant
    13 July 2012 10:02AM
    The point is that their view should not carry any more weight than my view,
    Any single person's view carrys no more weight than your individual view. Groups do, whether pro or anti whatever the subject is.
    Or is it your contention that only pro-gay rights lobby groups can lobby for changes in British Law, but religious institutions and their heads, can only make individual comments which hold no mass backing by their lobby group.
  • CrabNebula
    13 July 2012 10:04AM
    as with his gut wrenching tribute to Liz, Sacks has exposed himself time and time again as an assimilist lickspittle - how can one person claim to represent the views of ALL Jews?
    Short jews
    tall jews
    fat jews
    thin jews
    commy jews
    zionist jews
    religious jews
    atheist jews
    monarchist jews
    republican jews
    gay jews
    straight jews
    rich jews
    poor jews
    black jews
    white jews
    ginger jews
    bald jews
    jews for jesus
    jews for palestine
    jews for judea
    the chief rabbi speaks for himself
  • mombser2
    13 July 2012 10:05AM
    Reading the posts- Who has said that your view is any less valid-
    On this subject one can go around in circles- However in this country and other western countries same sex "Marriage" is legal- If certain faiths or sections of faith refuse to accept it into their ceremonies for what ever reason- Then within these democracies that should be their prerogative.
    So I see this article as boring!
  • shalone
    13 July 2012 10:09AM
    Jewish faith is also going thru reformation, although not at a desirable speed. We must, however, know that unlike Christianity which is spread thru in so many countries, Jewish faith is majority only in one country, Israel. And those longing for a Jewish state indirectly wanted also a religious state. As long as the movement is in the right direction, it is alright. But I understand the differences are being discussed peacefully and no bombs been thrown in temples belonging to other thinking Jews. We can live with that..
    I understand that in some conservative synagogues, men and women sit separately, like Muslims, but the number of such synagogues is in decline
  • patrickfowke
    13 July 2012 10:09AM
    So were those Christian leaders nominally Christian (ie upholding the values of a pagan / Christendom "Christendom" - and the aftermath of this "Christendom" world) or were they Christians following the spirit of Christ as evoked in the gospels?
    "Christian" is just a word:
    1. One of the best-known atheists of the 18th century, Meslier, was a Roman Catholic priest! (only after he died was it known of his hostility towards, religion, Christianity and the Church.
    2. Chaucer's Pardoner is an expert in religion and religious psychological manipulation to get money out of the vulnerable. We're not meant to take him seriously though as a believer.
    3. Dostoevsky makes his Grand Inquisitor an atheist.
    Don't confuse Christendom (and its aftermath and Protestant equivalents) with equalling Christianity!
  • iruka
    13 July 2012 10:14AM
    The Beth Din is not asking for a change in the law. It is making the comment that it is quite happy with the law as it stands. The whole clamour raised by activists on this matter gives the impression that religious groups are seeking anti-LGBT reforms which will roll back hard won "freedoms". Actually in every case all they are saying is "the status quo? Yes we can happily live with it."
    You're basically suggesting, then, that a practice or belief should be granted greater authority and respect because its adherents can demonstrate that it's the product of intellectual and ethical sclerosis....proposing to elevate 'because', as a justification to a status that trumps arguments rooted in human rights, needs and desires. Simply 'because', full stop.
    That's a habit of mind that diminishes those that hold it, regardless of any issues of religious belief. And it's generally based on a quite wilful misunderstanding of the meaning of genuine tradition in everyday life. Your conservatism is a thoroughly modern and alienated attitude, which has absolutely no claims of kinship with the habits of thought of those actually living a real tradition.
    Once a society has reached the point where conservatism is possible as a choice, then tradition is dead -- living tradition can never be a product of external authority. Conservatism is just another lifestyle, shaped in the service, and as the instrument, of remote interests.
    I'd love to know just what was going through your mind when you put " " around the word freedom.

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